Christian Fundermentalists

Wish to debate religious topics? Get debating!

Moderators: Lass, Lad

johnruddock
Junior Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:46 am
Location: Cheshire UK
Political Stand:

Christian Fundermentalists

Post by johnruddock » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:44 pm

An ever growing percentage of the U.S.A believes in the literal word of the Bible.
For example:
1 Everything was made in 6 days by God who then rested on the 7th day
2 They feel insulted when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt
3 They are quite happy to believe that the universe is only a few thousand years old and that Darwins Theory of Evolution is a load of rubbish.
4 They believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider their religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
5 That Homosexuals "choose their Lifestyle" and it is an abomination against their God.

My question is,assuming you aren't a Fundermentalist, how would you react to these claims ? ( I understand that some will say I wouldn't even bother but this thread is not addressed to them) :sign0006:
Last edited by johnruddock on Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Romulus111VADT
Gifted Member
Posts: 487
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:51 pm
Political Stand:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by Romulus111VADT » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:24 am

The question is, how long is a day for someone that lives forever and has no real concept of time. A day to God may be a billion years.

1) A day on the earth is 24 hours and a year is 365 days. All the planets have different days and years:

Mercury-
Rotation of its axis: 59 Earth days or that's 2 months
Rotation around the Sun: 88 Earth days or about 3 months for a year

Venus-
Rotation of its axis: 243 Earth days or almost one full earth year.
Rotation around the Sun: 225 Earth days

Earth-
Rotation of its axis: 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4 seconds
Rotation around the Sun: 365.2 days

Mars-
Rotation of its axis: 24 Earth hours, 37 minutes, 23 seconds
Rotation around the Sun: 687 Earth days

Jupiter-
Rotation of its axis: 9 hours and 55 minutes
Rotation around the Sun: 12 Earth years

Saturn-
Rotation of its axis: 10 hours, 40 min, 24 sec
Rotation around the Sun: 29 1/2 Earth years

Uranus-
Rotation of its axis: 17 hours
Rotation around the Sun: 30,685 days or 84 Earth years

Neptune-
Rotation of its axis: 16 hours and 7 minutes
Rotation around the Sun: 165 Earth years

Pluto- (formerly known as a planet)
Rotation of its axis: 6 days, 9 hours, 18 minutes
Rotation around the Sun: 248 Earth years

The Sun's orbits around the center of the Milky Way once every 225 million years. The period of time is called a cosmic year.

So a day and year can be completely different depending on where you are.

2) All living creatures are made up of elements from the earth. Remove the water from the human body and what do you have- Elements.

3) See number one

4) Hell has many definitions- one is an eternity separated from God.

5) This is an "abomination" to all those that don't live the life style. Most religions agree on this point. The Muslims still stone homosexuals to death, I do believe.
Last edited by Romulus111VADT on Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
appleton
Technical Administrator
Posts: 1209
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:07 pm
Location: London, UK
Political Stand: Liberal
Contact:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by appleton » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:08 pm

[quote=johnruddock]
An ever growing percentage of the U.S.A believes in the literal word of the Bible.
For example:
1 Everything was made in 6 days by God who then rested on the 7th day
2 They feel insulted when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt
3 They are quite happy to believe that the universe is only a few thousand years old and that Darwins Theory of Evolution is a load of rubbish.
4 They believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider their religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
5 That Homosexuals "choose their Lifestyle" and it is an abomination against their God.

My question is,assuming you aren't a Fundermentalist, how would you react to these claims ? ( I understand that some will say I wouldn't even bother but this thread is not addressed to them) :sign0006:
[/quote]

Firstly I would question how these claims came to be and the science and logical reasoning behind this. I think logically (most of the time)..

Rom pretty much answered how I would question myself personally :P
"Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back" - John Maynard Keynes

johnruddock
Junior Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:46 am
Location: Cheshire UK
Political Stand:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by johnruddock » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:51 pm

[quote=Romulus111VADT]
The question is, how long is a day for someone that lives forever and has no real concept of time. A day to God may be a billion years.

1) A day on the earth is 24 hours and a year is 365 days. All the planets have different days and years:

Mercury-
Rotation of its axis: 59 Earth days or that's 2 months
Rotation around the Sun: 88 Earth days or about 3 months for a year

Venus-
Rotation of its axis: 243 Earth days or almost one full earth year.
Rotation around the Sun: 225 Earth days

Earth-
Rotation of its axis: 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4 seconds
Rotation around the Sun: 365.2 days

Mars-
Rotation of its axis: 24 Earth hours, 37 minutes, 23 seconds
Rotation around the Sun: 687 Earth days

Jupiter-
Rotation of its axis: 9 hours and 55 minutes
Rotation around the Sun: 12 Earth years

Saturn-
Rotation of its axis: 10 hours, 40 min, 24 sec
Rotation around the Sun: 29 1/2 Earth years

Uranus-
Rotation of its axis: 17 hours
Rotation around the Sun: 30,685 days or 84 Earth years

Neptune-
Rotation of its axis: 16 hours and 7 minutes
Rotation around the Sun: 165 Earth years

Pluto- (formerly known as a planet)
Rotation of its axis: 6 days, 9 hours, 18 minutes
Rotation around the Sun: 248 Earth years

The Sun's orbits around the center of the Milky Way once every 225 million years. The period of time is called a cosmic year.

So a day and year can be completely different depending on where you are.

2) All living creatures are made up of elements from the earth. Remove the water from the human body and what do you have- Elements.

3) See number one

4) Hell has many definitions- one is an eternity separated from God.

5) This is an "abomination" to all those that don't live the life style. Most religions agree on this point. The Muslims still stone homosexuals to death, I do believe.
[/quote]

No Romulus,they acually believe in 6+1 earth days.I've verified this with them.

Number 2 is denying Evolution nothing to do with what we are composed of.

Number 4 Not sure of your point ??

The point about Gays is that its not a "chosen" lifestyle but rather one laid on them by nature ie they can't help being gay,its their nature.
The reason why fundermentalists can't accept this is because if it is nature that means ,in their eyes (fundermentalsits), gays are made that way by their God, which is unacceptable.

johnruddock
Junior Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:46 am
Location: Cheshire UK
Political Stand:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by johnruddock » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:08 pm

[quote=matt]
[quote=johnruddock]
An ever growing percentage of the U.S.A believes in the literal word of the Bible.
For example:
1 Everything was made in 6 days by God who then rested on the 7th day
2 They feel insulted when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt
3 They are quite happy to believe that the universe is only a few thousand years old and that Darwins Theory of Evolution is a load of rubbish.
4 They believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider their religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
5 That Homosexuals "choose their Lifestyle" and it is an abomination against their God.

My question is,assuming you aren't a Fundermentalist, how would you react to these claims ? ( I understand that some will say I wouldn't even bother but this thread is not addressed to them) :sign0006:
[/quote]

Firstly I would question how these claims came to be and the science and logical reasoning behind this. I think logically (most of the time)..

Rom pretty much answered how I would question myself personally :P
[/quote]


These claims are made by believing that the Bible is literally true :

1 The universe was made in 6 days +1 day off because it says so in the bible.
(Earth Days)
2 They dismiss Evolution because it differs from the explanation in the Bible.

3 The Earth was made 7 thousand years ago (ball park figure) because Historically the age of the Earth was determined either by using the accounts of creation in religious texts.(in the Bible of course)

4 This is fairly common to a lot of religious sects ie Mine is the one true religion,all the rest of you are wrong.

5 Homosexuality must be "a chosen lifestyle" because if it isn't,the only other explanation is that they were made that way by god.But as they say the Bible condemns homosexuality this ,in their eyes ,can't be so.
(they neglect the fact that homosexuality is widespread though out the animal kingdom where animals do not have any choice in the matter)
Last edited by johnruddock on Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Romulus111VADT
Gifted Member
Posts: 487
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:51 pm
Political Stand:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by Romulus111VADT » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:34 pm

1) You've been talking to people that obviously don't know any better. On this point they are wrong. My point above is probably closer to explaining it.

2) Everything evolves- planes, trains, automobiles, they all had a maker and all have evolved since they were originally created.

3) The earth is as the scientist say, many millions of years old. Even they say that homosapiens suddenly appeared around (I think it was) 200,000 years ago and have evolved ever since. All these started off as elements and were created from the earth. When someone dies, they decompose back into these elements. Just as every living thing will once it dies.

4) There are many hell's a human can experience. I did my time in hell in Vietnam. My grandfather spent his time during WWII. My uncles- Korea. Then there was the hell of the holocaust that the many people suffered through. So the term "Hell" is open to many interpretations.

5) On your homosexual point- If you are going to go at it in this manner. Does this excuse the life styles of pedophiles, necrophiliacs, people that practice bestiality's? To my knowledge, these other life styles are still illegal in every country on the planet and are also considered an "Abomination".

Most people ask, "How can you believe in someone you cannot see or touch"? I figure it this way, I cannot see or touch air/oxygen. But I know it's there and I need it to be able to live and under the right circumstances, I can even feel it, even though I cannot see it. I don't know for certain that tomorrow will come, but I believe it will and I have faith in the fact it will indeed come.

periphrastic
Junior Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:53 pm
Political Stand:
Contact:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by periphrastic » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:12 pm

[quote=johnruddock]An ever growing percentage of the U.S.A believes in the literal word of the Bible.
[/quote]

that statement alone is interesting

and so far, the discussion is, too

i do wonder about the term "literal" and its implications in reading and interpreting the bible - this is something i've, actually, been thinking about a lot lately (thanks to all these literature courses i take that usually incorporate study of language philosophy)

but anyway...interesting topic

User avatar
Dom
Senior Member
Posts: 263
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:51 pm
Location: UK
Political Stand:
Contact:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by Dom » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:54 pm

[quote=Romulus111VADT]
...Most people ask, "How can you believe in someone you cannot see or touch"? I figure it this way, I cannot see or touch air/oxygen. But I know it's there and I need it to be able to live and under the right circumstances, I can even feel it, even though I cannot see it...
[/quote]

Having said that, how do you know that oxygen is there? Presumably you've been told by someone else who "knows". But how do they know? The simple fact of the matter is, the existence of oxygen can be proven through physics and chemistry. The existence of God can't be.

So when people say things like "well, you can't see the wind but you know it's there", or "how do you know that it's germs that cause you to get ill? You can't see them..." the simple answer is that their existence can be proven. The only thing I say is that I don't believe in anything that can't be proven or disproven. If someone mentions something that I think exists, but I can't prove it, then I'll eat my hat, but until then... :tongue:

As for the questions on the OP, my answers would be as follows:

1) As I don't believe in God, I also don't believe that the Earth was made in 6 days. Carbon dating, and all of the other dating methods, can't be argued with. The physics speaks for itself, and if those dating methods are accurate, then the Earth is 4.3 billion years old. And that's all there is to it. I don't understand how people can say otherwise.

2) Again, the process of evolution is cast in stone (literally). There are fossilised remains of many species of animal that were created throughout history, and prove without doubt that animals change over time in order to adapt to a changing environment. Again, I don't see how people can just shrug off this evidence because they actually believe something that can never be proven (i.e. the Bible's depiction of events).

3) See number 2.

4) Well that's different for all religions I suppose. Some say "live and let live", while others say "live our way or we're entitled to stone you". Mentioning no names. The belief in Hell sits along side all other beliefs in a particular religion: if I don't believe in religion, I don't believe in any of it. I'm not saying that something similar doesn't exist, but if it did, as far as I'm concerned it's pure coincidence. And again, it all depends on your definition of Hell.

5) Not being gay, I can't possibly comment. I believe that humans can choose to act as though they're gay, in the same way we can choose to listen to any sort of music and pretend we like it, even if we dont. But at the end of the day, I think you are who you are. Maybe it's the result of the influences that have affected you over the course of your life; or maybe it really is in your genes; but either way I don't think people get a choice about what they really are.

There are some things that we still don't understand, that religion may provide answers to. The biggest question for me is, do people have souls, and what happens to them after the body dies? This might be something that has been completely made up by popular folklore and/or religion, but until we understand everything that happens when something dies, there's always the possibility that the "soul" exists, and that there's an afterlife. I guess we'll never know for sure until it happens to us one day, but does it really matter? If it turns out that Heaven and Hell do exist, then I'll believe it when I see it, and ask why it's so difficult for people in the living world to prove they exist. If not, I won't be around to worry about it.
Last edited by Dom on Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lad
Global Moderator
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:47 pm
Location: UK
Political Stand:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by Lad » Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:24 pm

.
Last edited by Lad on Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left.

Lad
Global Moderator
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:47 pm
Location: UK
Political Stand:

RE: Christian Fundermentalists

Post by Lad » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:17 pm

Debate reopened. Thanks for the patience.


I have been challenged by a member here to air my views on the subject which I declined to do at first on this particular website, but have since changed my mind. So first response below. :)

Roughly speaking I agree with those 5 points. I would phrase them slightly differently as they are not what I accurately believe, but the gist is there. So by some I may be termed a fundamentalist. This I don't mind if it means I am strict or traditional. That was what the word originally meant. Unfortunately now it has evolved to be associated with those individuals who do criminal acts (often involved in killing) and because of this association I distance myself away from it. As a comparison The word gay means happy, but none of us would describe ourselves or wished to be described so if we are happy (unless we happen to be gay of course!). I digress, however.

So how would I react to these claims which was the question. Well, to be honest, it depends who I talk to. In this situation I will give some notes on the following.

1 Everything was made in 6 days by God who then rested on the 7th day
According to the Genesis account, that is correct. Some people claim that this does not mean literal days. Some, as Rom suggests, think they could be billions of years. Giving the stance in the Bible on years (not necessarily meaning such) that is up for argument. I take the years literally simply because the whole book is meant to be taken literally.
To the unbeliever, there is no solid scientific proof that the earth was created in this space of time.

2 They feel insulted when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
I have met sscientists (university lecturers) who believe the "Biblical claim" and they don't get insulted at all, plus many people with knowledge and expertise in various scientific fields. To say they object to the belief is true. Science is still looking for the elusive missing link to prove the human-ape connection. The theory of evolution is still that; a theory. It still hasn't been proved. It's mans best efforts to giving the alternative to a religious one.

3 They are quite happy to believe that the universe is only a few thousand years old and that Darwins Theory of Evolution is a load of rubbish.
This is connected with the above. Some Christians, like Rom, believe otherwise. It varies, but the age of the earth is hardly of great importance anyway.

4 They believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider their religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
They do, but providing they treat those people the same as they treat those in their own sects, groups or whatever then that is fine. I treat everyone alike. I have mostly atheists in my family and many friends at uni too. Some of those friends are also of different religions. We all get on fine. As an example I spend part of my spare time in the Red Cross (a voluntary organisation). I help those in need. On the 31 of this month I will be looking after drunks all evening and late into the night, dealing with every wound and even abuse you can imagine on a big street party. I may believe in hell, but it doesn't affect how I view and look after my fellow human beings. :)

5 That Homosexuals "choose their Lifestyle" and it is an abomination against their God.
I think that it can come naturally to them, though some choose the lifestyle. I think it's a pity they do and I hope they change as many do to being straight. Most churches welcome these people and hope they change their ways.

Anyway I'm desperately needing to get back to my studies. Happy discussing and see you around the forums.
War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left.

Post Reply