Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

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Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

Post by politics4u »

The debate over whether God exists is a bitter one, and when asked why the don't believe in God, Atheists say because I believe in science, and you can't prove that God exists. When pressed further atheistic debaters, scientists, and the like will claim that if you can't see God or see evidences for him, Why then should you believe in him? This is what apologist Greg Bahnsen called the "crackers in the pantry fallacy". It could go something like this " I looked all over the pantry, and I could not find them. I, therefore, believe that they are not in there. This is logical, and probably accurate,however, it is not accurate to apply this same mentality to God. As Dr. Bahnsen pointed out,we have no reason to believe that n omnipotent, omnipresent, supreme ontological being would be evidenced and manifested in anywhere near the same way as crackers or any other material object.

The debate between Bahnsen and famous atheist Gordon Stein was a bitter battle to the end. After the debate, Bahnsen, and Stein took up a correspondence to discuss the issue. What he admitted, and what all atheists believe, is that if it isn't material it doesn't exist or at least you can't prove that it exists. Bahnsen, and many other apologists who foillow the Van Tillian method point out that, there is no scientific evidence to prove that something that isn't material doesn't exist. Science doesn't even attempt to prove that. Bahnsen then believes that it is a simple worldview. The Christian believes in God because the Bible tells them that God exists. The atheist doesn't believe that God exists because he doesn't believe that non material things exist or can be proven. There, however, is no scientific evidence to prove that theory. The atheist simply ASSUMES it; he believes it because to him that is most reasonable. Stein admitted to Bahnsen that he can't PROVE it, he simply BELIEVES it.Stein, one of the more brilliant minds of the atheist movement, admitted that he doesn't believe in God because he has a presumption that if God existed he must be material. Scientifically speaking, niether the Christian or the atheist can PROVE that God does or doesn't exist. It is all about worldviews. The Christian has a worldview with the assumption that God exists. The atheist presumes that God does not exist. These two would be on equal footing if it weren't for one thing. The Believer bases his belief on the Bible; he has faith in it, which we believe is divinely inspired. The atheists base their knowledge, they say, on science, but as we have seen even the greatest atheist debaters admit that science doesn't disprove God's existence, they just ASSUME that because they can't in any way see God that he doesn't exist. They base their belief on NOTHING. Stein admitted to believing that God doesn't exist because he just believed it, and similarly I dont expect to convince any of you here to belief in God, but I have just shown that it is a battle of worldview, not as atheists would hav Christians believe, a battle of evidence vs. Faith. It is a battle of faith vs. faith. The Christian, however, believes in something with divine inspiration. The atheist says " well I don't believe the Bible" That is where our faith comes in. You atheists have faith too, but it is faith that God doesn't exist.

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RE: Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

Post by garywoot »

God exists in faith.
Without this faith, you cannot believe in a God, so there's no point in believers having to prove it to you.

I believe in God because 1) I was born into a Christian family 2) I accepted him at a later age 3) I've experienced 'coincidental' times that felt miraculous 4) I've felt his presence. These aren't facts, so I haven't proven anything, nor do I intend to.

Also, I believe in this infinate universe that there needs to be some sort of deity to control it. Since I was provided the stories from the Bible and its teachings, I picked up Christianity fairly easily.

To counter-argue, Christianity:
How did the universe form without God?
My answer would be that there is no relation with time and matter. Matter existed before whatever time we can imagine.
If you want, you can consider matter to be a metaphor for our God. It is the beginning and the end.

You need to believe in God and what he did for us to go to heaven. It's just that simple. However, you can tell yourself that you believe, but if your actions don't match your thoughts, your thoughts aren't fully your own.

Religion helps you make different decisions according to faith and the teachings, which is why so many Christians blindly voted Yes on prop 8. You don't necessarily become a good person when you accept faith, but your path is led in a different direction.

Also, there are no promises that Christians live good lives. I don't know where you got that idea from since it's not in the Bible. The Bible explicitly states that the life of a Christian would be hard.

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RE: Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

Post by Sited »

How the hell do you quote on this board.. lol

Anyways, @ garywoot

You atheists wouldn't know what it's like because you guys do not have faith. I have had miraculous experiences as well, and although you people may think it was all just "luck," i believe that God was with me, and that his actions were occuring through my life.

Why is there war and violence in this world? I don't know. Am i God? No i'm not. God has done everything for a reason, and i know this from personal experiences, and that God has plans for every single living person out there.
He loves everybody. Not just Christians, but all people, whether they or they aren't Christians.

And yes, Living a Christian life is harder than living an atheist life, because in a atheist life, you have no worries in life pretty much, while living for God causes you to live in a righteous manner, and living the way that he wants you to live.

God has created us, and he chose to let us live our lives. And those who choose to seek him and live for him, must live in the way He wants us to.

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RE: Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

Post by ford007 »

I don't believe much in god. Still I hate atheists. To say the truth I hate the extremes in both ends. I hate the atheists as well as religious fundamentalists.
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RE: Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

Post by johnruddock »

"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people."
Doris Egan, House M.D., The Right Stuff, 2007

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RE: Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

Post by appleton »

Religion to me can go anyway. It's hard to prove there is a god (no physical proof) yet you can prove certain things in a religion. Science isn't 100% itself but I believe it's logical and I have yet to see god or feel any presence which makes me believe there is one.

This brings up another question. Are some people doomed to "hell"? If they don't feel the presence? See god or follow him? :icon_neutral:

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RE: Hey atheists, beat this with a stick.

Post by Dirk »

Objectively speaking, yes, you're right. Just as you cannot prove God exists, you cannot also prove that God does not exist.

However, having said that, on a subjective level, you can prove that "God" did not do specific things in the bible. This undermines the fundamental reliability of the book as if one thing is proven not to be, then the validity of each point comes into question.

For example, let us take the easiest point to disprove. Creationism, the ridiculous doctrine that asserts that God created the Earth, indeed the Universe, and all animals within 7 days. Thus follows the garden of Eden etc.

It has been proven - it is no longer just a theory - that the Earth, as a planet, came together as the gravitational forces of the masses of rock and mettalic debris scattered around the empty vacuum of space attracted one another and the gravitational field forced the formation of a spherical planetoid. The outer area cooled over a period of millions upon millions of years. The very inside, however, warmed, due to the incubation-effect generated. The metal of the centre (metal having a greater mass than rock) melted and became the core. The core utilised the gravitational phenomenon to turn, thus creating an electromagnetic field to envelop the planet. This polarised the planet, giving it an axis and a clear distinction between North and South. The Earth's incidental position in correspondence to the local star, known to us as the "Sun", put it in an ideal location to support life. Over millions, in fact, billions of years, ice-covered asteroids and meteorites pounded the Earth, secreting (in comparison to the Earth's surface area, tiny proportions of frozen H2O (made up of one hydrogen atom and two oxygen atoms), which peppered the surface. The Earth's position in relation to the sun meant that the ice melted into liquid water and was evaporated. The planet was sufficiently far away from the star to support an atmosphere and the evaporated water did just that - formed the fundamental basis of an atmosphere. This saw the formation of water-laden cumulus and the more wispy and less substantial stratus clouds. The release of this water (rain) collected in basins and lower areas of the planet's geography. Comets and the like brought tiny biota, suspended in ice crystals, to the planet's waters, where they could survive and were unfrozen by the warmer waters of Earth. Over many billions of years, these biota evolved very gradually into ever more complex unicellular organisms, and then, into ever more complex multicellular organisms. This formed a healthy aquatic microlife - both plant and animal, which evolved into millions of variations of fish and crustaceans through adaptive radiation and speciation. Amphibians gradually came to prominence to conquer the land, which had already been colonised by plant-based biota from the earlier asteroids, meteors, comets etc. These had evolved also to first pioneer species, such as ferns (grasses only evolved after the ice age), then perrenial plants, leading into ever more complex forms until the bushes and hardwood trees formed a climax community. This made for a diverse and strong plantlife, which spread around the planet through the process of succession. These took the plentiful carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, living on very small amounts of oxygen overnight (respiration), and releasing oxygen during the day, using the light energy produced by the sun in the relevant spectra (photosynthesis), meaning a net reduction of CO2 and a net increment of oxygen. Amphibious life evolved to colonise the land to take up the oxygen in the air, releasing CO2 by combining the oxygen breathed out with waste carbon. Amphibious life evolved to create diverse cultures of reptiles, amphibians and mammals (both placental and otherwise). Reptiles evolved to form a dominant species over amphibians at first. This was between 250-65 million years ago. Dinosaurs (not dragons). Mammals were small affairs, mostly mouse-sized critters. Rarely bigger. Dinosaurs died out and evolved into birds. Smaller reptiles such as snakes and crocodilians carried on, and, evolved to be somewhat smaller in the case of the latter. For a short time, birds were the dominant group, actually along with amphibians for a while, but mammals soon took their place and apes evolved to occupy a herbivorous niche. Austrilopithicus evolved to become omnivorous but Sabre Tooth cats were the dominant species at the time. Two groups of human evolved around two million years ago (not ten thousand) - Homo Erectus and Homo Neanderthalis. The former survived but the latter died out (for currently unknown reasons). This became modern man. They became dominant on the African continent following the Ice Age and their ingenuity allowed them to eventually span the globe.

No seven-day creation, no "garden of Eden", no talking snake, and no "God" were involved in the affair. At least not in any decisive or noticeable way.

God has created us, and he chose to let us live our lives. And those who choose to seek him and live for him, must live in the way He wants us to.

Why? I want to live my own life. I also think that i have a right to live how i want to and make decisions for myself and my fellow humankind.

I am a communist and i value freedom and i have a strong moral compass. I am also an atheist, if it hasn't already been made clear. Nothing whatsoever compels me to take up the worship of an invisible omnipotent, omniscient being, who, if it (since i presume a deity is beyond the restriction of gender) exists, is a racist, genocidal maniac, who wishes to dominate (according to the narrative of the bible).
Last edited by Dirk on Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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