Favor or Against

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carita
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Favor or Against

Post by carita »

Are you in favor or against a treaty that establishes a constitution for the EU?

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DodgeFB
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RE: Favor or Against

Post by DodgeFB »

[quote=carita]
Are you in favor or against a treaty that establishes a constitution for the EU?
[/quote]
I don't want to make anyone mad, but I am not a big fan of the EU. But since I live in the US my opinion does not make much difference. :lol: I would hate for other countries to make us a constitution . To much like an arranged marriage for me.:shock::lol:
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RE: Favor or Against

Post by Lass »

Oh wonderful! I'm not alone then. :lol: I studied A level law and politics, and neither reconciled me to the EU; I ended up disliking it more than before started. I'm now doing law at uni, and already I'm despairing at the pathetic "so be it" approach of the academics. We don't need to be walked over - c'mon, get out there and fight our corner before it's too late. :P Arranged marriage is a pretty good comparison! :D
Above all, I would teach him to tell the truth ... Truth-telling, I have found, is the key to responsible citizenship. The thousands of criminals I have seen in 40 years of law enforcement have had one thing in common: Every single one was a liar. [JE Hoover]

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RE: Favor or Against

Post by Lad »

Like Lass, I too studied law and if ever I was disatisfied before with the EU I am disatisfied now. I also studied economics which held the EU as central. Indeed I had a 60mark essay in my exam on the economics effects of leaving the EU.

The EU has its good points. But the reason there is France, UK, Germany etc is because they are people of totally different cultures, ideas and views. You cannot dump all these in a house and let them decide the economic and judicial rules and regulations for all those countries. When I think about it is just insane. It is good to have good trading links and good bodies like the UN, but each country should be left to do its own economy and do its own judiciary. The trouble now, is we are so intergrated it would wreck the UK economy if we pulled out. My reasoning is, don't go a step further and keep the last bit of sovereignty we have got.

So why should we go for the constitution?
Well it would strengthen the EU into becomming a greater force to challenge the US, China and India and ensure that each individual country doesn't get lost to the big powers. Two is better than one and in the case of the EU as many as we can get is better than one.

According to some, the closer knit the EU members are the easier it will for the EU to run. That is true.

It also means things like the judiciary will be harmonised more and certain rules we think wrong may be implemented and what we think are right taken away. The achievement is a far justice for all in the EU and a more effective ruling of the Humand Rights act.

The more competition there is the more goods and services there are, which also brings better quality for a cheaper price.

Why should we not go for the constitution?
The constitution prevents countries from leaving. It explicitly says so. Currently all countries can leave if they want. There may be a day when everyone in the UK might want to leave. Only a rebelling and revolution (which would mean a terrible war) could allow that.
Britain has had a real tough peice of the carcase to chew on so far in the EU. We have had policy after policy against us because we don't fit in.
The CAP is a disgrace (that's the Common Agricultural Policy). Basically it funds and gives huge amounts of money to farmers in the EU. But hang on! There are hardly any farmers in the UK! In France, Italy and Spain there are loads of farmers. Well up until very recently we had a rebate (an enormous sum) to make it more fair, our prime minister gave that away because the EU considered the rebate unfair to such a rich member state when so many poorer countries were comming in. Oh but of course it's not the UK's needs it's the EU's needs that is the priority!

Well if Argentina invades the Falklands will we be able to stand up and say we want to fight and get it back? Or will the EU say you must be joking over a few rocky isles. Gibralter recently had a referendum. 97% wanted to be British - but because it's basically in Spain would the EU force it to become under the Spaniards hands? Now those are smaller things, but they really show what a terrible state we have come into where almost everything is decided for us and not in our favour as I fear the Constitution is made.

Some of the last bits of sovereignty will be handed over and all economic power for the UK becomes subject to what the rest of the EU deems fit. It helps prevent the UK having unfair growth over other member countries which may hinder them. This means that the EU can halt progress in the UK because it is affecting others. Let's think about this. You are a country representative (especially if you are a developing country) and you want your country to prosper. Are you going to vote to make the UK properous or less so? Well basically it's quite obvious.

One thing that it contains is a majority vote needed for laws and rules to pass. The UK has especially been most annoying to the EU because its needs and wants are so different. So the idea was to ignore the UK (and other stubborn countries) by when it comes to voting it doesn't make any difference because the law cannot be vetoed!

Due to the total relaxation of immigration and all trading between member countries Britain will no longer be able to compete and there will be even more job losses over the next decades. I firmly believe that our sudden jump in unemployment (which I have been expecting) is due to the hundreds of thousands of immigrants and now will soar over the next few years. Sadly is appears that the British public just don't know their economcis and I think this is one thing that will see the Labour party go.

The floodgates argument is my worry. If we are locked in over the next few years by the no turning back rule the EU could do anything to Britain. If we can't say no we're leaving that's unfair then how do we stop anything totally unreasonable happening? Well we can't. Once the paper is signed and we no longer own our own government then we are at the mercy of everyone in the EU which traditionally and even very recently were our enemies.

I could go on, there are so many things, but I haven't time. One thing is for certain - the US would never be so stupid.
Last edited by Lad on Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Favor or Against

Post by DodgeFB »

[quote=Lad]
Like Lass, I too studied law and if ever I was disatisfied before with the EU I am disatisfied now. I also studied economics which held the EU as central. Indeed I had a 60mark essay in my exam on the economics effects of leaving the EU.

The EU has its good points. But the reason there is France, UK, Germany etc is because they are people of totally different cultures, ideas and views. You cannot dump all these in a house and let them decide the economic and judicial rules and regulations for all those countries. When I think about it is just insane. It is good to have good trading links and good bodies like the UN, but each country should be left to do its own economy and do its own judiciary. The trouble now, is we are so intergrated it would wreck the UK economy if we pulled out. My reasoning is, don't go a step further and keep the last bit of sovereignty we have got.

So why should we go for the constitution?
Well it would strengthen the EU into becomming a greater force to challenge the US, China and India and ensure that each individual country doesn't get lost to the big powers. Two is better than one and in the case of the EU as many as we can get is better than one.

According to some, the closer knit the EU members are the easier it will for the EU to run. That is true.

It also means things like the judiciary will be harmonised more and certain rules we think wrong may be implemented and what we think are right taken away. The achievement is a far justice for all in the EU and a more effective ruling of the Humand Rights act.

The more competition there is the more goods and services there are, which also brings better quality for a cheaper price.

Why should we not go for the constitution?
The constitution prevents countries from leaving. It explicitly says so. Currently all countries can leave if they want. There may be a day when everyone in the UK might want to leave. Only a rebelling and revolution (which would mean a terrible war) could allow that.
Britain has had a real tough peice of the carcase to chew on so far in the EU. We have had policy after policy against us because we don't fit in.
The CAP is a disgrace (that's the Common Agricultural Policy). Basically it funds and gives huge amounts of money to farmers in the EU. But hang on! There are hardly any farmers in the UK! In France, Italy and Spain there are loads of farmers. Well up until very recently we had a rebate (an enormous sum) to make it more fair, our prime minister gave that away because the EU considered the rebate unfair to such a rich member state when so many poorer countries were comming in. Oh but of course it's not the UK's needs it's the EU's needs that is the priority!

Well if Argentina invades the Falklands will we be able to stand up and say we want to fight and get it back? Or will the EU say you must be joking over a few rocky isles. Gibralter recently had a referendum. 97% wanted to be British - but because it's basically in Spain would the EU force it to become under the Spaniards hands? Now those are smaller things, but they really show what a terrible state we have come into where almost everything is decided for us and not in our favour as I fear the Constitution is made.

Some of the last bits of sovereignty will be handed over and all economic power for the UK becomes subject to what the rest of the EU deems fit. It helps prevent the UK having unfair growth over other member countries which may hinder them. This means that the EU can halt progress in the UK because it is affecting others. Let's think about this. You are a country representative (especially if you are a developing country) and you want your country to prosper. Are you going to vote to make the UK properous or less so? Well basically it's quite obvious.

One thing that it contains is a majority vote needed for laws and rules to pass. The UK has especially been most annoying to the EU because its needs and wants are so different. So the idea was to ignore the UK (and other stubborn countries) by when it comes to voting it doesn't make any difference because the law cannot be vetoed!

Due to the total relaxation of immigration and all trading between member countries Britain will no longer be able to compete and there will be even more job losses over the next decades. I firmly believe that our sudden jump in unemployment (which I have been expecting) is due to the hundreds of thousands of immigrants and now will soar over the next few years. Sadly is appears that the British public just don't know their economcis and I think this is one thing that will see the Labour party go.

The floodgates argument is my worry. If we are locked in over the next few years by the no turning back rule the EU could do anything to Britain. If we can't say no we're leaving that's unfair then how do we stop anything totally unreasonable happening? Well we can't. Once the paper is signed and we no longer own our own government then we are at the mercy of everyone in the EU which traditionally and even very recently were our enemies.

I could go on, there are so many things, but I haven't time. One thing is for certain - the US would never be so stupid.
[/quote]

WE can do stupid things too. But I think you are right that we would not go that way.

As I read your post I was thinking. What will this do to the pride of the people in UK? Will the next generation feel the pride and maybe at times get a tear in their eye when they hear your National Anthem and see that Great Flag as she stands in the wind? Well you get to keep your flag? Will it be allowed to fly at the top of the pole? Or will it have to be in a lower position?

This is some of the things I think of when I hear about the EU.:?
Last edited by DodgeFB on Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Favor or Against

Post by Lass »

One of the law lecturers was confidently telling me and a class of about 200 other young potential lawyers-to-be that we will probably see the day when the whole of the EU has the same legal system. I have a very low opinion of British politicians, and I think that Labour particularly would probably do something as terrible as that, but I just can't imagine it. The EU is getting bigger and bigger; how can you possibly unite so many different peoples, cultures, ancient traditions and legal values? I just don't see how that's workable (for want of a real word).

Diverging slightly, I think the Conservatives here are probably not a great improvement on Labour in many areas, but on the EU I think they just might be prepared to say "this far and no further". That would be a start in the right direction.

I personally think (and hope :P ) that the EU could collapse in on itself. The very 'virtues' and priniciples that are fundamental to it's existence might be its downfall. One of the main reasons the EU was created was to maintain peace. But trampling on national pride, removing national sovereignty, opening national borders to all sorts of people who (dare I say it) are not always received with open arms by the current residents, demanding a nation's soldiers for a colossal EU Army, a nation's money for EU bureacracy, a nation's forced compatibility with other nations which are fundamentally different (historically, culturally, traditionally, impossibly different) a nation's submission to every little directive spewed out of Brussels ... I'm sorry, but these kind of things just don't deliver on the peace issue. Needless to say, they don't deliver on quite a few other issues as well ...
Above all, I would teach him to tell the truth ... Truth-telling, I have found, is the key to responsible citizenship. The thousands of criminals I have seen in 40 years of law enforcement have had one thing in common: Every single one was a liar. [JE Hoover]

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RE: Favor or Against

Post by appleton »

Lass wrote: One of the law lecturers was confidently telling me and a class of about 200 other young potential lawyers-to-be that we will probably see the day when the whole of the EU has the same legal system. I have a very low opinion of British politicians, and I think that Labour particularly would probably do something as terrible as that, but I just can't imagine it. The EU is getting bigger and bigger; how can you possibly unite so many different peoples, cultures, ancient traditions and legal values? I just don't see how that's workable (for want of a real word).

Diverging slightly, I think the Conservatives here are probably not a great improvement on Labour in many areas, but on the EU I think they just might be prepared to say "this far and no further". That would be a start in the right direction.

I personally think (and hope :P ) that the EU could collapse in on itself. The very 'virtues' and priniciples that are fundamental to it's existence might be its downfall. One of the main reasons the EU was created was to maintain peace. But trampling on national pride, removing national sovereignty, opening national borders to all sorts of people who (dare I say it) are not always received with open arms by the current residents, demanding a nation's soldiers for a colossal EU Army, a nation's money for EU bureacracy, a nation's forced compatibility with other nations which are fundamentally different (historically, culturally, traditionally, impossibly different) a nation's submission to every little directive spewed out of Brussels ... I'm sorry, but these kind of things just don't deliver on the peace issue. Needless to say, they don't deliver on quite a few other issues as well ...
It's mainly us (the british) that seem to think the EU (brussels) is going to come in and rob us of everything we stand for. We need to relax more regarding this. Keeping our currency is one thing I agree we should do though.

We are not that different from many parts of Europe either. That's something to do with regional values and culture (Anyone who has been to brussels, Amsterdam or some part of france should know and understand what I mean :P ). Ever since we lost the famous port all those years ago... (i forgot the name/time and everything). We seem to think everything is out gunning for us.

Immigration is not bad where jobs are concerned at all. Anyone in a big city knows this. Most of the immigrants do the dirty jobs born brits don't want to.

Quoting Ben:
Well if Argentina invades the Falklands will we be able to stand up and say we want to fight and get it back? Or will the EU say you must be joking over a few rocky isles.
Was there a actual point to the falklands war? Or was it pride again? Over those small islands so far from the U.K I would have handed them over if anyone wanted them :P . Btw, Don't say it was for the people living on the islands. Just another pointless war IMO

Matt
Last edited by appleton on Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Favor or Against

Post by Lass »

[quote=matt]
We are not that different from many parts of Europe either. That's something to do with regional values and culture [/quote]
What makes a nation what it is, unless it's values and culture? :)

[quote=matt]
Immigration is not bad where jobs are concerned at all. Anyone in a big city knows this. Most of the immigrants do the dirty jobs born brits don't want to.
[/quote]
I scoured town in the summer for a job and never managed to find one. I'd have taken pretty much anything. To be fair, it's a small city. But it's what came to mind. I kinda don't believe this idea that we Brits won't condescend to do certain types of jobs, though. I wasn't talking particularly about jobs anyways. I'm not against immigration as a whole. :P I just think it's foolish to let everyone in.

[quote=matt]
Was there a actual point to the falklands war? Or was it pride again? Over those small islands so far from the U.K I would have handed them over if anyone wanted them :P . Btw, Don't say it was for the people living on the islands. Just another pointless war IMO
[/quote]
Well, if I was living in the Falklands, I would have felt most let down if the British government had had that attitude in the 1980s. ;-) I don't like blind patriotism, but there is something to be said for national pride. I think it was right for us to fight that war. Those islands are British territory, however you may view them. You just don't let parts of your land get overrun like that; it's not the done thing. ;-) Plus, it sends out all the wrong signals to the Spaniards... :lol:

Nah, that was no pointless war. Leave pointless wars to Tony and his cronies, Matt. :P
Above all, I would teach him to tell the truth ... Truth-telling, I have found, is the key to responsible citizenship. The thousands of criminals I have seen in 40 years of law enforcement have had one thing in common: Every single one was a liar. [JE Hoover]

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RE: Favor or Against

Post by Lad »

As Lass said I firmly believe that it is the very language, culture and values that make a nation. The US had those in common and so they united and became one country. Europe is so different and each language and culture made it needful to have separate countries. That is why there have been so many wars, because of clashing cultures.

If Denmark took over the Orkney Islands would we stand back Matt and let them have it? After all only a few people live there and isn't it just for national pride? Of course it is! There is nothing wrong with national pride providing it stays it its right place. When it steps out of line it causes violence - like invading countries as Hitler did. That was national pride which was wrong.

Society is simply your property on a larger scale. Be a bit like your neighbour taking your front garden off you and saying well you never use it much and you still have your house and back garden! Funnily enough it doesn't feel the same. Remember we owe those on the Falkland Islands a duty to protect them JUST AS MUCH as us back here in the UK.
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