Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

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Lass
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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by Lass » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:47 pm

[quote=Lad]
I never ever heard of them before. You did history Lass, - did you hear of them?
[/quote]

Nope ... but I know that there was a backlash after the Allies' entrance into Berlin.

Rom, you are sadly misled. These poor people need to be rehabiliatated and educated. They should be given the best education Iraq's most prestigious academies can provide, paid for by Iraqi taxpayers - maybe by a special fund set up by the UN. These insurgents have the potential to become great men/women; they just need the opportunities to achieve their potential ...

*Sarcastic grin*. So speaks in the human rights watch ... :tongue:
Above all, I would teach him to tell the truth ... Truth-telling, I have found, is the key to responsible citizenship. The thousands of criminals I have seen in 40 years of law enforcement have had one thing in common: Every single one was a liar. [JE Hoover]

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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by DodgeFB » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:50 pm

[quote=Romulus111VADT]
I know this will sound totally barbaric, but the most effective way to deal with these types is to shoot them on site and in full view of others that may be considering taking up terrorist activities. This worked after WWII with the suppression of the werewolves (they were Germans still loyal to Hitler). They went around doing exactly what the insurgents are doing now. The German people got fed up and started shooting them on sight and leaving their bodies for military personnel to pick up.
[/quote]
I still think we may have to turn some land over there into "ant-farms. Would that be barbaric? We really do need to get their attention. Image
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Romulus111VADT
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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by Romulus111VADT » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:17 pm

The Werewolves were originally organised by the SS and the Hitler Youth as a diversionary operation on the fringes of the Third Reich, which were occupied by the Western Allies and the Soviets in the autumn of 1944. Some 5,000 -- 6,000 recruits were raised by the winter of 1944-45, but numbers rose considerably in the following spring when the Nazi Party and the Propaganda Ministry launched a popular call to arms, beseeching everybody in the occupied areas -- even women and children -- to launch themselves upon the enemy. In typical Nazi fashion, this expansion was not co-ordinated by the relevant bodies, which were instead involved in a bureaucratic war among themselves over control of the project. The result was that the movement functioned on two largely unrelated levels: the first as a real force of specially trained SS, Hitler Youth and Nazi Party guerrillas; the second as an outlet for casual violence by fanatics.

The Werewolves specialised in ambushes and sniping, and took the lives of many Allied and Soviet soldiers and officers -- perhaps even that of the first Soviet commandant of Berlin, General N.E. Berzarin, who was rumoured to have been waylaid in Charlottenburg during an incident in June 1945. Buildings housing Allied and Soviet staffs were favourite targets for Werewolf bombings; an explosion in the Bremen police headquarters, also in June 1945, killed five Americans and thirty-nine Germans. Techniques for harassing the occupiers were given widespread publicity through Werewolf leaflets and radio propaganda, and long after May 1945 the sabotage methods promoted by the Werewolves were still being used against the occupying powers.

Although the Werewolves originally limited themselves to guerrilla warfare with the invading armies, they soon began to undertake scorched-earth measures and vigilante actions against German `collaborators' or `defeatists'. They damaged Germany's economic infrastructure, already battered by Allied bombing and ground fighting, and tried to prevent anything of value from falling into enemy hands. Attempts to blow up factories, power plants or waterworks occasionally provoked melees between Werewolves and desperate German workers trying to save the physical basis of their employment, particularly in the Ruhr and Upper Silesia.

Several sprees of vandalism through stocks of art and antiques, stored by the Berlin Museum in a flak tower at Friedrichshain, caused millions of dollars worth of damage and cultural losses of inestimable value. In addition, vigilante attacks caused the deaths of a number of small-town mayors and, in late March 1945, a Werewolf paratroop squad assassinated the Lord Mayor of Aachen, Dr Franz Oppenhoff, probably the most prominent German statesman to have emerged in the occupied fringes over the winter of 1944-45. This spate of killings, part of a larger Nazi terror campaign that consumed the Third Reich after the failed anti-Hitler putsch of July 20th, 1944, can be interpreted as a psychological retreat back into opposition, even while Nazi leaders were still clinging to their last few months of power.

Although the Werewolves managed to make themselves a nuisance to small Allied and Soviet units, they failed to stop or delay the invasion and occupation of Germany, and did not succeed in rousing the population into widespread opposition to the new order. The SS and Hitler Youth organisations at the core of the Werewolf movement were poorly led, short of supplies and weapons, and crippled by infighting. Their mandate was a conservative one of tactical harassment, at least until the final days of the war, and even when they did begin to envision the possibility of an underground resistance that could survive the Third Reich's collapse, they had to contend with widespread civilian war-weariness and fear of enemy reprisals. In Western Germany, no one wanted to do anything that would diminish the pace of Anglo-American advance and possibly thereby allow the Red Army to push further westward.

Despite its failure, however, the Werewolf project had a huge impact, widening the psychological and spiritual gap between Germans and their occupiers. Werewolf killings and intimidation of `collaborators' scared almost everybody, giving German civilians a clear glimpse into the nihilistic heart of Nazism. It was difficult for people working under threat of such violence to devote themselves unreservedly to the initial tasks of reconstruction. Worse still, the Allies and Soviets reacted to the movement with extremely tough controls, curtailing the right of assembly of German civilians. Challenges of any sort were met by collective reprisals -- especially on the part of the Soviets and the French. In a few cases the occupiers even shot hostages and cleared out towns where instances of sabotage occurred. It was standard practice for the Soviets to destroy whole communities if they faced a single act of resistance. In the eastern fringes of the `Greater Reich', now annexed by the Poles and the Czechoslovaks, Werewolf harassment handed the new authorities an excuse to rush the deportations of millions of ethnic Germans to occupied Germany.

Such policies were understandable, but they created an unbridgeable gulf between the German people and the occupation forces who had pledged to impose essential reforms. It was hard, in such conditions, for the occupiers to encourage reform, and even harder to persuade the Germans that it was necessary.

By the time that this rough opposition to the occupation had started to soften, the Cold War was under way and reform became equally difficult to implement. As a result, both German states created in 1949 were not so dissimilar to their predecessor as might have been hoped, and changes in attitudes and institutions developed only slowly. Thanks partly to the Werewolves there was no German revolution in 1945, either imposed from above or generated from below.

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1260

bibliography:
Fuller, J.F.C. Die entartete Kunst, Krieg zu fuhren 1789-1961. Koln: 1964.
Goebbels, Josepf. Tagebucher. Hamburg: 1977.
Grau, Karl-Friedrich. Schlesisches Inferno. Stuttgart: 1966.
Lons, Herman. Der Werwolf. Jena: 1920.
Rose, Arno. Werwolf 1944-1945. Stuttgart: 1980.
Werwolf, Winke fur Jagdeinheinten. Berlin: 1945.
Whiting, Charles. Werewolf, The Story of Nazi Resistance Movement, 1944-1945. London: 1972.
Last edited by Romulus111VADT on Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Romulus111VADT
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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by Romulus111VADT » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:33 pm

[quote=Lass]
Rom, you are sadly misled. These poor people need to be rehabiliatated and educated. [/quote]

I'm just curious, how much personal experience do you have dealing with these types of humans? I have dealt with the exact same types in Vietnam and I can tell you from experience. There is no such thing as "Rehabilitation" of people that make their living terrorizing people. Most aren't even Iraqi's and most are foreign fighters that could care less about Iraq and it's future. They're in Iraq to make money and are all basically mercenaries.

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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by appleton » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:03 am

[quote=Romulus111VADT]
[quote=Lass]
Rom, you are sadly misled. These poor people need to be rehabiliatated and educated. [/quote]

I'm just curious, how much personal experience do you have dealing with these types of humans? I have dealt with the exact same types in Vietnam and I can tell you from experience. There is no such thing as "Rehabilitation" of people that make their living terrorizing people. Most aren't even Iraqi's and most are foreign fighters that could care less about Iraq and it's future. They're in Iraq to make money and are all basically mercenaries.
[/quote]

I would agree with that. If someone is brainwashed/mentally ill enough to think that blowing up a bus, abducting innocent people is acceptable they are very unlikely to change.

"Rehab" would work for Alcoholic or drug addicts I cannot see it working for brainwashed persons in particular (note this is just what I have observed from my 18 years of existence on this planet ;)

It may work for some but I think it wouldn't for the majority. Just my opinion.
"Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back" - John Maynard Keynes

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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by Romulus111VADT » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:40 am

[quote=matt]
I would agree with that. If someone is brainwashed/mentally ill enough to think that blowing up a bus, abducting innocent people is acceptable they are very unlikely to change.

"Rehab" would work for Alcoholic or drug addicts I cannot see it working for brainwashed persons in particular (note this is just what I have observed from my 18 years of existence on this planet ;)

It may work for some but I think it wouldn't for the majority. Just my opinion.
[/quote]

Your on the right track Matt. It doesn't take allot to figure these people out. I mean, they claim to be Muslims, but they blow up Mosques, hide in Mosques, store weapons/explosives in Mosques. They use schools to store weapons/explosives. They hide behind women and children. They will dress as women in Burkas to sneak around to set their explosives. They used suicide bombers to kill innocent women and children. They have NO caring for human life or rights. They are so fervent in their delusional beliefs that nothing can persuade them other wise.

I'll give you a prime example- A Palestinian woman was saved by Israel doctors. They spent months saving the womans life. So how does she repay their months of dedication to saving her life. She was caught at a check point trying to return to the hospital with a suicide bomb belt around her waist. She got caught red handed and got so frustrated that she tried to kill herself right on the spot. But the bomb failed to go off.
Last edited by Romulus111VADT on Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by Lass » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:29 am

[quote=Romulus111VADT]
[quote=Lass]
Rom, you are sadly misled. These poor people need to be rehabiliatated and educated. [/quote]

I'm just curious, how much personal experience do you have dealing with these types of humans? I have dealt with the exact same types in Vietnam and I can tell you from experience. There is no such thing as "Rehabilitation" of people that make their living terrorizing people. Most aren't even Iraqi's and most are foreign fighters that could care less about Iraq and it's future. They're in Iraq to make money and are all basically mercenaries.
[/quote]

You are absolutely right. I was being sarcastic - sorry ... Probably not the best idea in the world to make a point via sarcasm. I could've made it more clear really. I agree with you 100%. The only 'human right' terrorists have left is the right to die ... ;) So we're kinda on the same wavelength, I think. Sorry for the confusion there. :)
Above all, I would teach him to tell the truth ... Truth-telling, I have found, is the key to responsible citizenship. The thousands of criminals I have seen in 40 years of law enforcement have had one thing in common: Every single one was a liar. [JE Hoover]

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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by appleton » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:33 am

It would have helped if we would have seen your *Sarcastic grin* at the bottom of that post! I didn't see it! :P

Nevermind :)
"Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back" - John Maynard Keynes

Romulus111VADT
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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by Romulus111VADT » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:40 pm

[quote=Lass]
[quote=Romulus111VADT]
[quote=Lass]
Rom, you are sadly misled. These poor people need to be rehabiliatated and educated. [/quote]

I'm just curious, how much personal experience do you have dealing with these types of humans? I have dealt with the exact same types in Vietnam and I can tell you from experience. There is no such thing as "Rehabilitation" of people that make their living terrorizing people. Most aren't even Iraqi's and most are foreign fighters that could care less about Iraq and it's future. They're in Iraq to make money and are all basically mercenaries.
[/quote]

You are absolutely right. I was being sarcastic - sorry ... Probably not the best idea in the world to make a point via sarcasm. I could've made it more clear really. I agree with you 100%. The only 'human right' terrorists have left is the right to die ... ;) So we're kinda on the same wavelength, I think. Sorry for the confusion there. :)
[/quote]

No problemo.... :icon_biggrin:

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RE: Iraq PM calls for raiders' arrest

Post by Lad » Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:22 pm

There is little cure for a group of totally disillusioned folks, so what cure is there for a whole nation or race? The majority of Palestinians (millions of them) support Hamas and millions in Lebanon support Hezbollah. Many people in both countries would happily give their lives to take away a few of their enemies. Sadly, they aren't on their own and outside those countries millions more support what they get up to.
War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left.

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