Capitalism is best

Parliamentary democratic deficits, lazy representatives, and trade deficits. Discuss all these issues here.
mongoman
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by mongoman » Sat May 09, 2009 9:58 pm

People complain about governments being corrupt, but if there is no government to control the corruption of people, then those people are going to exploit that fact. That is why anarchism can't solve poverty.

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Dirk
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by Dirk » Mon May 11, 2009 1:44 pm

[quote=mongoman]
And anarchism/communism does?
[/quote]

As Anti says, the workers are the ones being exploited, despite the fact that we're the pillars of the economy. As a communitarian anarchist, i do believe that anarchism/communism works.

[quote=mongoman]
Capitalism is far more practical than a socialist/communist/anarchist system, but obviously practicalities don't always lead to fairness.
[/quote]

There's plenty of proof. Look at all the communes that operate each according to ability, each according to need. They work well and many are partially or fully self-sufficient.

[quote=mongoman]
Also, Anti, if you think that an anarchist regime will solve all the problems of world poverty, I think you're very much mistaken.
[/quote]

Well, in a commune, everyone has the choice to participate or not and you'll find everyone does. There're no set jobs, the wealth is voluntarily shared equally. It's a close and strong community that works well socially and economically. No capitalism is involved, and there's no poverty. Which brings my point against your criticism of Anti's point. There would be no poverty because there would be no system to induce that inequality. There's plenty resources in the world, after all.
Working Class And F***ing Proud!

A, B, C, D - Eviscerate the bourgeoisie.

Freedom Or Death. One solution:
R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N!

All Power To The People!

mongoman
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by mongoman » Mon May 11, 2009 4:23 pm

There's plenty of proof. Look at all the communes that operate each according to ability, each according to need. They work well and many are partially or fully self-sufficient.
An example?
Well, in a commune, everyone has the choice to participate or not and you'll find everyone does. There're no set jobs, the wealth is voluntarily shared equally. It's a close and strong community that works well socially and economically. No capitalism is involved, and there's no poverty. Which brings my point against your criticism of Anti's point. There would be no poverty because there would be no system to induce that inequality. There's plenty resources in the world, after all.
You will never get a world-wide commune though, so inevitably there will always be some form of exploitation from one regime or another... and these communes will be easier to exploit because there is no form of strong government.

Anti
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by Anti » Wed May 13, 2009 6:21 am

[quote=mongoman]
People complain about governments being corrupt, but if there is no government to control the corruption of people, then those people are going to exploit that fact. That is why anarchism can't solve poverty.
[/quote]

not at all, you cant just assume this. why do think no government = choas?? maybe the media that brainwashes the people??
Since anarchists seek to overthrow them it is not surprising that they would slander anarchism with all sorts of absurd nonsense.

mongoman
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by mongoman » Wed May 13, 2009 11:05 am

If you think about it realistically as opposed to idealistically, its clear that that's what will happen. There are always going to be some individuals that are naturally exploitative, and with no system of government they will be able to do exactly what they want to do, as there is no way of controlling them.

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Dirk
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by Dirk » Wed May 13, 2009 12:02 pm

[quote=mongoman]
An example?
[/quote]

Where do you live? I'll find one close to you. There are thousands all over the world.

[quote=mongoman]
You will never get a world-wide commune though, so inevitably there will always be some form of exploitation from one regime or another... and these communes will be easier to exploit because there is no form of strong government.
[/quote]

You're missing the point. It's not a world-wide commune i want to achieve. It's a world-wide system of communes. And anyone is welcome and anyone can choose not to operate as part of a group and live individually. Decentralisation is important because only locals can know what's important and what's best for them. It's the entire basis of democracy. And how more local can you get than a commune? Direct democracy means the workers' wants and needs are heard more immediately. The means of production are put in the workers' hands through worker's cooperatives. The point of anarchy is that there is no authority to exploit the people. Post-revolution, this will be implemented by a provisional Government, which then disbands and the situation i described remains. It's inevitable. The dialectic demands it.
Working Class And F***ing Proud!

A, B, C, D - Eviscerate the bourgeoisie.

Freedom Or Death. One solution:
R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N!

All Power To The People!

mongoman
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by mongoman » Wed May 13, 2009 12:22 pm

I live in Birmingham, England.

And the same argument applies whether its a world-wide commune, or a world-wide system of communes. There will always be those that refuse to adhere to the rules that you want to set out, and they will find it much easier to exploit the people of the world if there is no form of government in place anywhere.

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Dirk
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by Dirk » Wed May 13, 2009 1:54 pm

[quote=mongoman]
I live in Birmingham, England.
[/quote]

http://directory.ic.org/records/index.p ... d&pageID=1 - find one you like and visit.

[quote=mongoman]
And the same argument applies whether its a world-wide commune, or a world-wide system of communes. There will always be those that refuse to adhere to the rules that you want to set out, and they will find it much easier to exploit the people of the world if there is no form of government in place anywhere.
[/quote]

Government does not protect people from capitalism, it protects and aids it against the people. The revolution will be a release from that - capitalism will be socially unacceptable. As is, for example, an absolute monarchy in Britain or France in the modern day.
Working Class And F***ing Proud!

A, B, C, D - Eviscerate the bourgeoisie.

Freedom Or Death. One solution:
R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N!

All Power To The People!

Machiavelli
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by Machiavelli » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:57 am

Communes work because the people participating in the communes actually want to live that life style. They want to love in a "Transcendental" styled community. However, most people in the World do not want to, and would thus not work with the system, leading to laziness, corruption and exploitation of their fellow workers.

And everybody thinks anarchy will be so great, until their family is murdered and theres no police to catch the murderer, no law to convict him and no real prisons to hold him. Beside, organized government has a lot of benefits (roads, public services, police, firemen, I would love to see private citizens organize NASA or any other major government agency, etc) just as long as the said government is limited in its duties (the more power, the more corruption.)

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Dirk
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RE: Capitalism is best

Post by Dirk » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:13 pm

[quote=Machiavelli]
Communes work because the people participating in the communes actually want to live that life style. They want to love in a "Transcendental" styled community. However, most people in the World do not want to, and would thus not work with the system, leading to laziness, corruption and exploitation of their fellow workers.

And everybody thinks anarchy will be so great, until their family is murdered and theres no police to catch the murderer, no law to convict him and no real prisons to hold him. Beside, organized government has a lot of benefits (roads, public services, police, firemen, I would love to see private citizens organize NASA or any other major government agency, etc) just as long as the said government is limited in its duties (the more power, the more corruption.)
[/quote]

For the first account, i do agree with you. But, as i'm of the true communist persuasion, i believe that each community has a right to self-determination, and i would like to see the deepening of community relations. That by no means suggests i'm about to force anyone to take part. I value individualism. You may be part of a community or you may be separate. It is entirely your own choice.

On the second count, this is only true of a direct change to anarchy, in my belief. I think that during the transitional stage (socialism), powers and responsibilities should be gradually handed over to communities and services placed in the hands of elected worker's soviets. So, for example, truly criminal acts (not minor offences) can be dealt with by a community organised team. In my ideal, there would be no such thing as thievery as products would be free and available on direct demand. This vastly reduces wastefulness. So-called crime would be vastly reduced if not next to eradicated as communities are much closer, and there is more support from the community if you fall upon hard times, and there will be no poverty, as capitalism has been eradicated.

Unfortunately, it will be some time before the revolution. I look forward to it and hope i'll be alive to take part in it.
Working Class And F***ing Proud!

A, B, C, D - Eviscerate the bourgeoisie.

Freedom Or Death. One solution:
R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N!

All Power To The People!

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